Chuck, I can see from your website that you keep your audience in the dark about my recent historical discoveries exposing the pledge.

In an effort to save your readers from ignorance, I publicly challenge you to debate the pledge. Hearing no acceptance from you within a week, I will declare my victory over you in this debate (via your default). I hope your readers will give you the courage to participate.

I do wish to thank you for agreeing with me that there should be no amendment to the U.S. Constitution banning flag desecration. You imply that you are "libertarian" so that means you want to end government schools, and that means de facto that you would end all laws that purport to dictate daily chanting in government schools. So, thanks for agreeing with me on that too. Supreme Court cases indicate that neither students nor teachers can be required to chant the pledge in government schools or elsewhere. I presume you agree that government should not force anyone to chant the socialist’s pledge, so I thank you for agreeing with me in that regard also. If I misunderstood, please let everyone know.

Nevertheless, I could not find on your Muth website actual comments by you on the topics in the previous paragraph, other than the desecration amendment.

I googled your Muth site for "flag" and found nothing but a reference to a survey on Citizen Outreach (which, it is interesting to note, does not seem to be at Citizen Outreach any longer) and you printed only a short comment giving the mixed survey results. A google search of your Muth site for "libertarian" revealed only three results, none a self-description by you. A google search of your Muth site for "pledge" revealed nothing related to the flag.

All of the above explains why you only respond to my comments about the pledge, and you ignore my comments on the pledge’s relationship to EVERY other issue you discuss, including government schools, the growth of government at all levels, federal intrusion into criminal law (e.g. desecration amendments), social security, socialism, you name it.

And your jealousy and envy about my historic discoveries is odd, but your attitude about the socialist's pledge explains why you did not make those discoveries, and it explains why you keep your readers in the dark about the discoveries.

So, this "jihad" you're on to elevate the socialist’s pledge and the daily worship of government (and the socialist dogma behind it) in the name of "liberty" goes only to explain how the present government was elected by people like you, it still holds office, and it is outsocializing Clinton by double (in social spending alone). The least you can do is to do it under your own name and not under the auspices of "libertarians." We don't need any more black eyes. No children need any more black eyes from people who like to make children robotically chant a socialist’s pledge in government schools, and who outsocialize Clinton by double. Was your "black eye" crack a sick joke about the fact that the socialist’s pledge has inspired plenty of black eyes, actual arrests, grotesque violence, and government using government schools to take children away from parents on the grounds of "unfit parenting" (because they wouldn’t chant the socialist’s pledge)? And now republican-socialists want to do the same for "flag desecration" with a Constitutional amendment.

The only reason the republican-socialists aren’t even more socialistic, is because libertarians are here to shame them with reminders of their police-state behavior.

As previously stated, you don’t inform your audience of the truth about the pledge and its relationship to every other issue you discuss. But I can help you. This is an open challenge to you to publicly debate the pledge. Hearing no acceptance from you within a week, I will declare my victory over you in this debate (via your default).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Muth" <>
To: "Rex" <>
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: flag desecration amendment must be stopped

> Rex, while I agree with you that there should be no amendment banning flag
> desecration, this "jihad" you're on to eliminate the Pledge of Allegiance in
> the name of libertarianism goes only to perpetuate the public perception of
> a political movement out on the "fringe."  If you wish to continue tilting
> at this windmill, fine. But at least do it under your own name and not under
> the auspices of "libertarians."  We don't need anymore black eyes.  - Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rex" <>
> To: "Chuck Muth" <>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 6:49 PM
> Subject: flag desecration amendment must be stopped
>> Any Constitutional amendment against flag desecration is bad. State laws
>> already dictate a pledge of allegiance to the flag daily in many schools.
>> Why is it that flag fetishists who tout flag laws don't chant the pledge
>> every day?  Their hypocrisy masks the old dark desire to make children and
>> adults worship government daily at the ring of a government bell. Please
>> oppose the amendment, and educate everyone about these new historical
>> discoveries:
>> 1. The original Pledge of Allegiance to the USA's flag used a
>> straight-armed salute and it was the source of the salute of the monstrous
>> National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis).  The gesture was not an
>> ancient Roman salute.
>> 2. The Pledge began with a military salute that then extended outward
>> toward the flag.  Due to the way that Francis Bellamy (the Pledge's
>> creator) used the gestures, the military salute led to the Nazi salute.
>> The Nazi salute is an extended military salute.
>> &
>> 3. Bellamy was a self-proclaimed socialist in the nationalism movement and
>> his dogma influenced socialists in Germany, and his pledge was the origin
>> of their salute. Many people forget that "Nazi" means "National Socialist
>> German Workers' Party." A mnemonic device is the swastika (Hakenkreuz in
>> German).  Although the swastika was an ancient symbol, it was also used
>> sometimes to represent "S" letters joined for "socialism" under the German
>> National Socialists. Hitler altered his own signature into the same
>> stylized "S" letter for "socialist."
>> How the discoveries were made is a fascinating story in itself.  I made
>> the discoveries by accident during legal research involving litigation
>> about the pledge. As a libertarian lawyer, I do pro bono work educating
>> students and others about the right to reject the ritualism.
>> Fight the flag hags and their flag fetish and self-flagellation.
>> Government's schools should not teach kids to verbally fellate flags each
>> morning. It is like a brainwashed cult of the omnipotent state. For adults
>> it is childish. Remove the pledge from the flag, remove flags from
>> schools, remove schools from government.
>> A flag desecration amendment would desecrate the Constitution.  Our
>> leviathan government and its schools, and Bellamy and the Department of
>> Education could inspire a comatose person to desecrate the flag, to pledge
>> disallegiance, and to recite the declaration of independence.
>> Francis Bellamy and his cousin and cohort Edward Bellamy (author of the
>> bestselling novel "Looking Backward") espoused "military socialism"
>> worldwide. The Bellamy dogma was the same dogma that led to the
>> "Wholecaust" (of which the Holocaust was a part): 62 million killed under
>> the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 35 million under the
>> Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million under the National Socialist German
>> Workers' Party.  It was so bad that Holocaust Museums could quadruple in
>> size with Wholecaust Museums to document the entire slaughter.
>> In the USA, the Bellamy dogma supported a government takeover of
>> education. The government's schools imposed segregation by law and taught
>> racism as official policy.  The USA's behavior was an example for three
>> decades before the Nazis. As under Nazism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and
>> blacks and the Jewish and others in the USA attended government schools
>> that dictated segregation, taught racism, and persecuted children who
>> refused to perform the straight-arm salute and robotically chant the
>> pledge. Some kids were expelled from government schools and had to use the
>> many better alternatives.  There were acts of violence. When Jesse Owens
>> competed in the 1936 Olympics in Germany, his neighbors attended
>> segregated government schools where they saluted the flag with the Nazi
>> salute.  The U.S. practice of official racism even outlasted the horrid
>> party.  And the schools and the Pledge still exist. The Pledge is still
>> the most visible sign of the USA's growing police state.  Stop the USA's
>> flag Nazis.
>> Franklin Delano Roosevelt repeated the Bellamy errors with his massive
>> socialism, including the Civilian Conservation Corps and its military
>> regimentalism ( as previously reported on Opinion Editorials at
>> ),
>> as well as social security and its Nazi numbering ( as previously reported
>> on Opinion Editorials at
>> ).
>> After segregation in government's schools ended, the Bellamy legacy caused
>> more police-state racism of forced busing that destroyed communities and
>> neighborhoods and deepened hostilities.
>> The flag desecration amendment is proof that government schools must end
>> because they produce people and politicians who hate the Constitution and
>> limited government.
>> Listen to a new talk-show appearance by about the flag and
>> the pledge
>> A more detailed version of the article above is at